32 responses to “New story reviewing system”

1. Lazeez, while I in general applaud your work on the storiesonline site, the reviews section has always needed improvement. This is the first step in a much-needed renovation.

   Some comments and suggestions:

   1) Why not allow space for a short “freehand” review, say a paragraph or two? That would give a much better sense of the story reviewed than just a numerical rating by set categories. And, maybe expand the number of categories, too, especially one for character development.

   2) Why not allow “negative” reviews? As long as the reviewer provides a valid e-mail address, thus taking some measure of responsibility for the review, I should think that would be helpful to the readers and authors.

   3) Permit reader/author comments on the reviews.
   Something like slashdot, maybe, for rating the reviews themselves.

2. One suggestion: reviews now contains both link to the story, and to the story author page. Would it be much work to add the description and codes of the story (as given by author) and perhaps size to the review? Some of the reviews are not much more than reviewer score, and I have to look at the description of the story to see if I want to read it.

   Shadowhawk

3. Why not allow a negative review? If a story is terrible, the reviewer should be allowed to state so. Not allowing negative reviews is the start of censorship.

   There is nothing more damaging to a site than to read a story that has glowing reviews, when it’s ‘utter shite’.

   All that eventually happens, is that people stop reading the reviews because they can’t be trusted (A bit like politicians!).

   There-for making the whole idea pointless and a waste of everyones time.

   (Sorry to be so negative, but you should never censor reviews, after all that is the whole point of reveiwing.)

   Pixy

4. Regarding negative reviews:

   Read the article again. I never said that anything negative will be rejected. But any review, must have something redeeming to the review itself. If a story is terrible in the reviewer’s opinion, then they could say that, but, they have to say why they think that and tell the author what they could do to fix it.

   A review that goes like:

   “I read this story and I found it terrible. The author is an idiot and should refrain from writing any further.”

   Will be rejected.

   But a review that goes something like:

   “I tried reading the story and I found it to be atrociously written. It is riddled with spelling errors and grammatical errors. The author needs to at least use their spell checker and have their work reviewed by an editor before submitting the story.”

   That kind of review could well be accepted.

   A review of a story that rubs the reviewer major squicks, like somebody that hates incest reviewing an incest story would probably get rejected.

   If the review goes something like:

   I read this story and it contained incest. All authors that write incest should be hung with their balls.

   or This story contains rape and scat the author is sick in the head for even thinking about writing such drivel.

   that type of review will be rejected.

   So, the reviews have to be helpful. To the reader or to the author, but they can’t be outright insults with nothing constructive to say.

5. I think the idea was to promote “constructive reviews“, i.e. if you think that there is something wrong with the story, point out what it is. Show the areas that needs improvement.

   The idea is to not scare the authors from writing. To help them improve, not belittle them.

   See for example some lower rated Celeste reviews on SOL.

   Shadowhawk

6. *clap*clap*

   Sincerely,
   ElSol

7. Understood, I stand corrected with both wrists slapped.

   Pixy

8. Personally, I’m happy with the changes and have no complaints. I’m probably the most recently added reviewer prior to the change – it’s been 8 days since I submitted the first one. I have no problem with the “no negative reviews” restriction because it’s not worth my time to review something I don’t like. I may mention something that could use improvement, but that goes right along with the spirit of the restriction. But the thing that nobody seems to be talking about and is the biggest improvement (in my opinion) is that now anybody can read a review. I automatically became a premier member when my story sizes reached a particular point so reviews were available to me when I first got interested in them. As far as I’m concerned, anybody who logs on should be able to scour them and find something that interests him or her. There are a hell of a lot of good stories on SOL and many of them get lost because they aren’t on some list. The story that has the 21st number of downloads or scoring may never be found again. That’s a shame. And that’s what I feel the reviews are for. Leave the turkeys alone and let them die by themselves.

   The OLD FART

9. You know, I’ve never really paid that much attention to the reviews section. I’ve read the odd one or two, but all those 9’s and 10’s kind of put me off.

   So Shadowhawk, I did what you said and read some of Celeste’s lower rated reviews. ‘Free for all farm girl’ has a review better than the actual story. Which is a bit unsettling. Then there was ‘Irish Spring’ and then…. Before I knew it, the evening was ruined. Bugger.

   Pixy

10. As long as constructively negative reviews are allowed, then I think it’s great. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with a well written and thought out “negative” review. If those can’t be allowed, then there is no point to reviews, as they will all come across as fanboi propaganda.

    By constructively negative, I don’t mean flames, or unsubstantiated negativity. If a reviewer is going to be negative, they need to support it with details as to why, just as (hopefully) they will support a positive review.

    I’d like to point out to Lazeez that if a writer fails to use appropriate story coding, such as failing to mention that there *is* scat or incest in the story, then a reviewer should be allowed to give a negative review based on that fact. (Hopefully they will email the writer and tell them that they failed to warn of a “squick” type subject being in the story, and it can be corrected.) There’s nothing worse than reading a story, getting into it, and then find out that {for example} beastiality is in it, and you hate stories like that. I’d also like to note that a coding of “Caution” for artistic purposes should not generate a negative review, I hope.

    Writing a good review is hard, and can require a lot of thought. There are a lot of stories that I enjoyed, that I would write a good review for, but would also point out anything I felt was lacking.

    I’d also like to see that no reviews are accepted for stories that are “In Progress”. There’s nothing worse than seeing a review written for something that isn’t done, and the author could either drop the ball on the story, or pull a bad story into a really good one, and yet that review is sitting there.

    Garylian

11. Question – if you’re moderating reviews personally (or, at a later date, having someone else moderate them), why are you making the reviewers email address public?

    To ensure ensure it isn’t spam? You did that, through moderation. To ensure it’s not negative? Same thing. To ensure the reviewer will “stand by his words” or some such?

    How come authors don’t have to stand by -their- words, good or bad? Why is there such a(n increasing) double standard between readers/reviewers and writers? Even these hand picked special readers are getting the “bastard stepchild” treatment.

12. I have to agree. If an author’s email address is being shielded (which it is), then a reviewer deserves the same courtesy. There is zero justification for having a reviewer’s email address dangling out there for all to see, and it may generate extra spam for said reviewer. Nothing like having an address dangling out there to get bots salivate.

    I also don’t see a reason to limit this to 10 reviewers. Why only 10? Or is that just for the initial phase? You weren’t clear on that.

    I’d like to see author’s not being given first crack at reviewing. Talk about having a “pat on the back society” potential. If you look at a.s.s.d, you can see that. Either the authors/editors are buddies, or they have stark animosity towards each other. I don’t want to know only what other authors said. I want to see what a reader had to say.

    The author’s got what they wanted with the new email system, and it’s fair. It’s time to be fair to the reviewer. No public email address. Comments to them are handled the SAME way reader’s comments to an author are done. Make it so a few reviewers are NOT authors/editors.

13. A reviewer cannot be treated the same as an author or as a regular reader.

    Having a reviewer account means having the power to affect a story’s readership. With such power, there must be some measure of responsibility.

    Who is going to really contact reviewers? Authors. Why would readers really contact a reviewer?

    So if a reviewer has the power to affect an author’s story, then the author must be able to contact the reviewer to discuss whatever issues were raised in the review.

    Currently, the site’s mailing system does not handle reviewer accounts, it may in the future, but for now, it doesn’t.

    As for spam, not to worry, the reviews and review listings are not accessible without logging in. So no bots.

    And don’t worry, more than half of the reviewers so far are neither authors nor editors.

14. Uh… Laseez? If the only person who would ever contact a reviewer is the author of the reviewed story, then by your own words you’ve entirely negated all reasons for the reviewer’s email to be made public in the first place.

    When a review is posted, an automated message could be sent to the author with a copy of the review and the email addy of the reviewer.

    “With such power, there must be some measure of responsibility.” This comment makes NO sense in this context, since writers (who clearly have the most power) have no responsibility at all. Their anonymity is always protected no matter what they write. And that’s fine – I have no problem with their being anonymous. But the current system is two-faced in every last regard, since there are solutions out there that can still favor writers -without- putting the security of readers at such an extreme disadvantage.

    I still think a private messaging system would solve all these things, in this instance and with anonymous reviews.

    “And don’t worry, more than half of the reviewers so far are neither authors nor editors.”

    With only 10 reviewers, statistically that means almost half ARE.

15. I have a few disagreements with the last poster (Yes lazeez, I can see you groaning and shaking your head, then putting it in your hands. But let me carry on).

    1: At least get his name right.

    2: “writers (who clearly have the most power)” No we don’t. We write but we don’t force you too read what we have written. On the other hand, reviewers are supposed to be impartial, and we should trust their judgement. To put it simply, would you trust the word of a plumber when he comes to fix a leak, or the word of his previous customers? Do you read reviews of an item before you buy it in the shops?

    3: “This comment makes NO sense in this context” No, it makes perfect sense.

    4: Your last paragraph is gibberish. Lazeez said “More than” not half. In simple English that is six and above, or four and below. Which any mathematician will tell you, is not half.

    5: Who are you? Why are you not prepared too put a name to your half-baked accusations.

    Personally (and this is as a writer) I prefer people to be able to comment on stories without having to supply an e-mail address. They are more likely to comment if they are not scared of recriminations (see above). Comments on my stories have dropped markedly at the loss of the ‘anonymous’ tag.

    Pixy.

16. Quote from Lazeez’s original Blog entry:

    I’ll start with 10 new reviewers. If you’re interested in becoming one of the reviewers contact me and let me know.

    If a reviewer feels like the story is missing a squirk code that should be added to the review.

    When a story in progress is reviewed it would be nice for the reviewer to mention the last chapter his review references. For example, a few of the stories in progress I am currently following have more than 50 chapters. A review of only the first ten or so chapters in the above case is not as useful as one that includes most of the story.

    The same idea also applies when the author does a rewrite of a reviewed story.

    Knight Ranger

17. The problem with re-write part is that it requires the reviewer to pay attention to a story they may have reviewed a year or more ago, and now the author is re-writing it.

    The review is dated, and the individual chapters are dated on the top of each one as to when it was originally posted AND last updated. While putting the chapter # that the reviewer made the review on would be helpful, there is nothing to prevent the author from going back and doing a complete re-write of that chapter, or of all the chapters prior to the review. In fact, they could re-write it 5 times, and all you see is the first and last date.

    Which is why I don’t look at reviews for stories that are in progress. Once that review is up, the author can do anything after it was written, and that review is stuck there. Some stories get worse, and some get better. And some get left unfinished, and a review of that would really be a mistake.

    Garylian

18. Hi, Pixy! I’m not familiar with your stories, but I do appreciate your response to my issues with the new “improvements.”

    1: My bad. As difficult as my name is to pronounce, I know how Lazeez must be tired of idiots like me spelling his name wrong. I apologize in advance, because I’ve now got that “s” in my head and will surely make the same mistake again.

    
2: In the context in which I referred, authors do have the power. What I meant was that with every new system being implemented, writers are getting more and more special privileges (or are allowed to retain more privileges), while readers are LOSING privileges left and right. Each new change in SOL is biased towards the writers and against readers. The point of my complaints is that a) it is RIGHT that authors should be favored, but b) that new changes don’t have to be at the EXPENSE of readers.

    That’s why i suggested an internal messaging system. That way EVERYONE is allowed to be anonymous – comments, reviews and etc. can be tracked back to your SOL login id, not your email address. However, the SYSTEM would have your email address – it could allow you to be notified of reviews you receive, or of responses to reviews you’ve sent. Lazeez, as the owner of the system, would also have a way of linking email accounts to user ids, so trolls, author stalkers, flamers or whatever would not have free reign to wreak havoc.

    
3: “No, it makes perfect sense.” No it doesn’t. Authors bear no responsibility for the consequences of what they write. I’m not saying they SHOULD, either. But if they can write crap, or kill off a fan-favorite character in the 67th chapter, do they really have the right to complain that they’re getting 2’s and 4’s for scores or are flooded with hate mail?


    That is, of course, one of the primary reasons for the recent changes: To defend authors from the consequences of -their- actions. With such power, *should* there be some measure of responsibility? If an author goes out of the way to do something controversial in a story, knowing ahead of time that fans will react emotionally, how come it’s the -readers- that are made to take responsibility for what -they- write in response?

    The only situation in which this is not valid deals with story codes. If you’re a moron and you read a scat story KNOWING you don’t like scat, you’ll vote it low whether the story deserves it or not.

    Now, there are two ways to deal with that situation. First is to let Darwinism take its course. Let the scores and the hate mail stand, possibly driving those authors away. In one way, this is bad, but from another perspective, this is how the readers tell SOL and the authors what they want to see in the future. In effect, free market rules, and giving the readers what they want is what directs the site’s future.

    The second way to deal with is to treat it like a problem – and from past experience, Lazeez -will- treat it like a problem, as he did anonymous reviews. Here, one solution would be to link scores and feedback. If SOL used a private messaging system, you could be forced to give feedback on a story before being allowed to vote a score for it. Conversely, if you flame the author and vote a 2, your score could be deleted. Another way would be to let authors delete low scores. The effect of this is that you might have a higher score, but you’d have a lower number of VOTES, which is another way to tell tell how popular a story is. A third way would be to disallow anonymous votes. The end result of each “solution” to this problem will be a markedly large decrease in the total number of votes, as I’m sure many authors have seen a decrease in feedback since the new anonymous review “fix.”

    
4: It’s not gibberish. In simple English, 6 is almost half. Statistically, it’s virtually indistinguishable from half. If the percentage holds as the number of “official reviewers” rises, a very significant number of them will be fellow authors, which will mean any given review is likely to be back-slapping from a fellow author or editor, rather than an honest reader’s perspective.

    
5: I am me, and that is all anyone needs to know. That is, after all, the -point- of most of my comments on this blog. Are my comments somehow more valid if I turn out to be Nick Scipio or Catherine Zeta-Jones? Of course not. If in reality I’m just some nameless loser who enjoys reading stories on the internet, do my comments become somehow -less- valid?

    My whole point is, they -shouldn’t- be.

    “Comments on my stories have dropped markedly at the loss of the ‘anonymous’ tag.”

    And that was exactly what I was fighting to prevent. El Sol doesn’t care because he’s got so many people sending him reviews, any small loss would be insignificant and probably not even noticeable. But you small guys, who are probably the vast majority of the writers (and of the number of stories posted) on SOL, all of you got bent over to take one for the team. So maybe I misspoke when I said that the authors have the power. Maybe its just a few of them mucking it it up for -everyone- else?

19. This is not really the place for comment about the new feedback system – there is “New Feedback Email System” blog entry just before this – but the choice to allow or not anonymous feedback is AUTHOR’S choice. What has changed is that email address must be confirmed to be considered non-anonymous.

    It is an authors choice if he/she allow anonymous feedback, or disallow it having less flames but possibly less feedback.

    As to email address of authors: if they reply to feedback, then their email cease to be anonymous, at least to the reader the feedback they replied to. Without replies to reader’s feedback there is much less chance for future feedback: see “Reader Feedback 101” entry.

    Shadowhawk (the reader)

20. Greetings

    This reviewing system looks good. Allowing constructive feedback is very good.

    Reviews feedback critism or whatever are an opinion. One person providing guidance to readers and perhaps in the ideal help for a writer.

    It’ll be most useful for me if it points to overlooked stories.

    All in all another good idea

    WarLord

21. I will hold my judgment on how good or bad the review system is until one of my stories are actually reviewed. As it is my only real request is put in something similar to how when reading a story you can sort by author names. Perhaps a drop down or even a true text based search.

    There are probably reasons for and against such a system but personally I would like to see the extra functionality.

22. storymaster69> As it is my only real request is put in something similar to how when reading a story you can sort by author names. Perhaps a drop down or even a true text based search.

    Perhaps better (another) solution would be to implement the alphabetic table from SOL Authors table. That is just a thought.

    Another idea would be to have some very coarse vote/grading system for reviews. Perhaps simply “I Agree”/”I Disagree” vote.

    A good idea for reviewers would be to put in their reviewer page’s “About:” section the separate paragraph explaining what kind of stories reviewer like, what searches in the stories and the like. It would hint if we would find the same stories interesting.

    Shadowhawk

23. I am surprised I have to request this one but I did not know about it until someone took me up on the challenge of doing a review of one of my stories.

    How about sending the author a short e-mail advising him/her that a review has been done?

24. The biggest problem I see with anonymous comments–and I do have them enabled–is people *insist* on asking me *questions* anonymously, and I can’t reply. Flaming doesn’t bother me.

    As for reviewing: authors–most of the ones I know of, anyhow–*are* readers. I get lots of ‘fan mail’ from fellow authors, so I know they’re reading other authors. We’re not isolated here, just typing away and ignoring the output of others.

    There’s an added bonus to looking for authors to review: Lazeez can quickly find out if we know how to *write*. Writing a review takes writing skill. A different type of writing than a story, to be sure, but all Lazeez has to do is look at one of my stories to see that I have a decent grasp of grammar and punctuation and all that stuff, and that I’m coherent.

    And, yes, I did just send Lazeez an email telling him I’m interested. And, yes, I am well aware that some authors around here get way too much notice–and I’m one of them–and others get way too little. If Lazeez approves me, I plan on starting by highlighting some of my favorite stories that have gone sadly unnoticed.

    –Frank Downey

25. Well, the new system has been in and working for a while. Guess what? There have been 44 new reviews in the last 19 days. There was one in September,one in August and three in May.

    Everybody can access the reviews and I’ve gotten emails thanking me for posting them, both from the author and people who’ve read the stories I’ve reviewed. As for telling the author, I always drop the author an email telling him/her I’ve submitted a review. And they write back, appreciative of it.

    I could care less how many people are authors or what the policy is on anonymous readers. Stories are getting reviewed and people can choose to read them or not.

    The OLD FART

26. Personally, as an author, I think it’s a good idea and the new system, though it does have some flaws like any system, works well. Up until this was implimented very few reviews were done. If a well constructed critisism is written it is a big help to an author. That way we know what to work on in the future. An out and out slam of a story does nothing but promote bad feelings. If a reviewer does a good job a reader may find a different type of story than they are used to and find they enjoy it. A system like this may expend horizons and make you look at something you weren’t sure you would enjoy. < bows and kudos to the new reviewers!

27. As a reader, I certainly appreciate a better and more critical review than the readers provide.

    Also, is there a way to access just the “Reviewers” reviews without looking through every new work to find them? I would like to selectively read stories based on better reviews.

28. Sorry for the previous question regarding where to find Reviews – duh, look at the menu! But with that said when I went there and tried to access the story, instead I was provided the review. Could a minor revision be made to include access to the Story directly and a separate access to the Review?

29. I *love* your new reviewing system, Lazeez!

    Now *everyone* can be a reviewer just by making a Favorite Stories List and adding a blurb to each favorite story.

    All I would ask for now is a list on my own Account Manager page to tell me who added any of my stories to their Favorite Stories List…

    –Hungry Guy

30. You know, I’ve often wondered who adds my stories to their favourites as well.

    Pixy

31. this is a good option as every one has his voice in the room. this is will help authors and the readers as well. it will tend to groom the thought process of the authors n readers at the same time.

32. Reviewers have more power than authors. It is always easier to destroy than to create. A negative review is easier to write than a positive review (never mind a good story), and has greater impact.

    Bad writing doesn’t need to be punished, just ignored. Does the reader rating system not go far enough to relegate weaker stories to the back of the pack?

    If you feel a story doesn’t deserve its high rating, you may have a point, but who is your proposed negative review designed to serve? The author? (Send them email.) Future readers? (As a whole will they differ so dramatically from past readers who gave it a high rating? And if they do, won’t the rating fall?) Genre aficionados? (A positive descriptive review, or the absence of same next to other genre stories, can be just as informative.)

    As few reviewers and reviews as there are and will be (relative to the number of stories and authors and ratings), better that they be used to elevate than denigrate.

    If I want to read about how everything sucks, I’ll go to CNN. I come to SOL to read what’s good.