You are currently browsing comments. If you would like to return to the full story, you can read the full entry here: “Poll for the Clitorides Awards”.
You are currently browsing comments. If you would like to return to the full story, you can read the full entry here: “Poll for the Clitorides Awards”.
as long as a story is excepted for posting on SOL then it should be voted on. you might have to open a new catagore for the stories with no sex but what is one more anyway
I’ve noticed that authors use the “no-sex” code differently. Some use it to denote stories that truly contain no sex (even “off-screen”), while others use it to denote stories where the sex is not the focus of the story. Consider AutumnWriter’s story “The Blameless Bystander,” which is marked as “no-sex” (I pick this story as an example because it happened to be the random selection when I first saw your blog post, as well as being a quality story). This story (IMO) is definitely erotic, and in fact is marked with other “sex” codes. I definitely think that particular story should be eligible for a Clitoride award.
Accordingly I would not suggest excluding “no-sex” stories. If people are willing to nominate and eventually vote for a “no-sex” story for a Clitoride award, then I see no problem in allowing it. Perhaps it should be up to the authors themselves as to whether they should be excluded.
You should be looking at other sites as well. You won’t find many sex stories on assm anymore.jhrhncd
To clarify. I wasn’t asking about any story using the ‘no-sex’ code on storiesonline. I’m talking about any story on any site that is not erotic nor contains any kind of sex.
In my opinion, the Clitoride awards are about erotica. As such, unless there are going to be categories for non-erotica, they should be for erotica only.
I’m not in favor of the politics of exclusion. If the work is nominated I think it is better to let the voters decide whether it belonged or didn’t. As long as it is freely available I can’t think of a reason for excluding it, unless it was nominated without the author’s approval or knowledge.
cmsix
I would say that all stories accepted on any adult site should be considered for the award.
Lazeez wrote
> Many of the nominated stories are
> no-sex stories. As in not a bit
> of sex in them.
About eight years ago, the president and the congresscritters here in the U. S. of A. had something of a disagreement about just exactly what SEXUAL RELATIONS meant and didn’t mean.
Many stories will be “NO SEX” simply because there is no interaction of the plumbing systems, and sometimes not even one system of plumbing is involved. That doesn’t mean it isn’t erotic, or that it isn’t adult.
One of the justices of the United States Supreme Court once said something along the line of ‘he didn’t know what pornography was, but that he’d surely recognize it when he saw it.’
I feel the same way about erotica and adult topics.
Lazeez further said:
> The clitorides awards were
> created to promote the erotica
> writing community; even the name
> ‘clitorides’ is a reminder of
> that.
You don’t want to get too hung up on ‘clitorides’ in your definition. That is a female term, yet the golden clits have always been available to Male/Male stories too.
If a story has ANY element within it which makes it unsuitable for the broad general reading population because of age, mainstream interests, prudism or anything else which places it within what is generally considered the ‘adults only’ spectrum, than it is eligible for a golden clit in my opinion.
That doesn’t mean I’ll necessarily vote for it, but that’s not my point.
Roxanne
I comment from the readers standpoint and only my opinion is stated (I think it is the right one though). I like a story with a developed plot and characters that support sex activity included in the story and a story does not require sex to be good.
Only two catagorys would be excluded in my consideration; (1) No sex or erotica included or (2) Nothing but sexual activity included, stories nominated for a Clitorides Award.
LET THE VOTORS DECIDE!
I can’t phrase my opinion any better than cmsix did.
“If the work is nominated I think it is better to let the voters decide whether it belonged or didn’t. As long as it is freely available I can’t think of a reason for excluding it, unless it was nominated without the author’s approval or knowledge.”
Roxanne sez: ‘You don’t want to get too hung up on ‘clitorides’ in your definition. That is a female term, yet the golden clits have always been available to Male/Male stories too.’
I am in agreement with Roxanne, don’t get too hung up on ‘… clitorides’. If that’s going to be a problem, rename them.
Now define ‘erotica’ and if you can make a good case with your definition I might reconsider my saying that all stories appearing should be considered…just let your voters decide. I’ll be most of them have a pretty good idea of what’s eligible for an award.
Well, if the story really has no sex, then which category will it be nominated into ?
I agree with not specifically excluding no-sex stories, but maybe they need their own category, since most of the existing ones don’t make sense for stories without sexual content.
I can understand the reluctance to exclude stories that are nominated but there are many awards available to stories that are not erotic in nature. I recall that Asa Strong opened his own site because of the negative feedback he was getting from posting no-sex stories on SOL and other erotic sites.
If you want to offer a GC for the best no-sex story then that would be fine, a contradiction in terms, but fine. I don’t think that the story should dilute the votes in the other categories though. A great science fiction story without any sex could win a Hugo but a great sexually explicit story that is science fiction could only win a GC and would never even be nominated for a Hugo.
I vote that we either have a special category or not allow the nomination.
I say let the stories be nominated and see how people vote on them. If you start excluding stories on the basis of lack of sex/erotica, you’ll open up a big can of worms. People will debate with you over what constitutes “erotic.” Don’t fall into that trap and cause yourself a lot of headaches. Most likely any story that is NOT erotica will just get voted down anyway.
Sounds like a separate category for “Non-Sex” should be added.
Given the precedents, I’d say that no-sex stories should be eligible. After all, one (GMW’s ‘Hannah Sawyer’) won one last year. Of course, one could argue that just because the sex occurs ‘off-screen’ doesn’t make it not erotica.
cmsix had it right: leave it up to the voters. If enough find a story worthy (or unworthy) of inclusion, that will show up in the final voting.
I agree, let ‘No Sex’ stories be nominated and create a separate category if possible. Thanks.
co2
Lazeez,
Good Writing is good writing. Who among us cannot appreciate a well written story whether erotic or non- erotic. Inclusion seems appropriate.
“If a man does not keep pace with his companions perhaps it’s because he hears a different drummer…Let him step to the music which he hears however measured or far away.
Inclusion of non-erotic stories seems appropriate.
I think the clitorides awards are, or should be, erotica awards.
Sex is not a required component of erotica, and I would be opposed to a “sex required” rule. On the other hand, it would seem to me to be a bit silly to have a non-erotic category for an erotica award. Best erotica with no sex may be a possibility, but then you have to clearly define sex.
I would prefer to let anything be nominated, the voters will choose what they like. If completely non-erotic stories get nominated, they’re not likely to garner many votes, and nobody has to be judge-and-jury.
I’m writing as an author who has published both in the erotic and non-erotic genres. I’ve delayed weighing in on the subject because I am of two minds on it.
Unfortunately, this will be a lengthy post. Sorry about that.
First, let me say “thanks” to p-squared for mentioning and complimenting my story. Anyone else so inclined is encouraged to do so as often as possible.
As any author, I am eager to expand my readership and receive recognition for my work. Expanding the Clitoride program would serve this purpose for the nominees and winners,and also expand interest in the non-erotic genre and that would benefit all of us who work in it. It would also have the potential of demonstrating that erotica authors may possess other dimensions in their literary arsenals. All this would be to the good.
P-squared’s comment about the codes brings up one of the difficulties in assigning genres to stories. Sexual feelings are so intertwined in the human condition that many stories are not at all about sex, but some aspect of it might appear in them. I have written two such stories.
Let me assure everyone that the skills and process necessary to bring together erotica is in many ways similar, but in others quite different, from non-erotic work.
I believe that what might begin as a non-erotic category might evolve into a category for stories that are erotic, or sexual in theme, but without depictions of explicit sex in them. That might be a good category to have, but if it is to be that, let’s do it on purpose.
It might be difficult getting a good cross section of mainstream author participation in an award program centered on erotic fiction.
I am certain that many would not allow their names or works to be so associated. It would also be difficult to attract enough mainstream voters for the same purpose. We could debate whether they’re right or wrong to feel that way, but it’s beside the point.
If an award is given for best of anything, it should be done with the understanding that the winning entry stood out as the best of many excellent entries. If the award is really “Best Story Written by an Author Who Also Writes Erotica”, then the limited scope makes the award less meaningful.
Another concern is the potential of drawing in authors who are underage to the program. There are sites that feature general amateur fiction and many of the authors are high school students. In this day and age, great care has to be taken by erotic enterprises in this regard. Although there may no technical violations of law or ethics, the appearance and proximity are just too close for comfort, in my view.
I also have a fear of potential dissociation of past participants and winners who established the Clitoride program for the specific purpose of encouraging erotic authors. They might feel that the traditional purpose is diluted.
I have to reluctantly conclude that it would be better to leave to basics of the program in place, especially in this transitional year. That’s the short part of the long story.
I have no idea if I’ve even been nominated-probably not. My comments in no way mean that I wouldn’t appreciate the best wishes of readers who might have, or plan to do so.
Thanks for taking the time to read my views.
AW
I’d have to say no. If there is no erotica in it, then I don’t think it should be considered. There are plenty of ways to celebrate non-erotic writing, and very, very few to give praise for good erotic writing.
Dark Pen
Maybe it’s time for a new category… If it is a non-erotic story, then it shouldn’t be in the same competition as the erotic stories that are the main focus of the awards. I have nothing against either type of story, and do read both, but they shouldn’t be competing against each other.
Harry The Hermit
I support the cmsix solution, assuming that authors have the right to withdraw any title of theirs from the race. Perhaps authors should have some say in whether their nominated story better fits another category?
When we vote, we will recognize if a story is nominated for a category where it does not belong and we won’t vote for it in that category. Simple enough, I think.
I have to agree with another poster and say, that if you try and rule-out non-erotic stories, or Non-sex stories, or if they are to be given their own category, I think a definition of erotic would be useful if not absolutely necessary. Where is the cut-off between what is allowed to be nominated and what isn’t? If the story is erotic, let’s say the main character is NAKED the entire story, is that erotic? What if there’s sex, but everything happens “off-screen?” Is that erotic? Is Intercourse required to be erotic? What about masturbation, does that count as sex?
The Congress and the Supreme Court of the United States have been arguing about the definition of “Pornography” since the sixties. They haven’t come to a good answer yet. I don’t think we’re going to get a good answer here.
Let the voters decide what gets nominated, what makes it to the finals and what wins. It’s the easiest, least controversial idea out there.
Just my opinion.
-Jeff
I’m of the opinion that informing persons at the nomination and voting stages of the process that the awards are for “Erotic Stories” without attempting to define the term “erotic” is perfectly feasable. Let the nominations come, let the voters vote and define it for themselves. But I just like to giggle anyway, so…Not making something absolutely positively foolproof for the safety of the masses sounds like a barrel of fun to me!
IMO, if it’s nominated (or gets enough nominations) let the voters decide.
Iam not an author, but a mere reader. I hope my opinion carries weight. If a story is nominated, it should be judged. Whether or not ther is sex in the story. Some of the best stories I have read in the past year have had no sex.
I have written what most people would describe as graphic erotica with some success. But I found that reader response was obviously focused on character and plot not gynecological descriptions of the plumbing. I also found that writing and reading graphic physical descriptions of sex activity tends to be both formulaic and repetitive. The available vocabulary is just not rich enough to support endless variation.
As a result I’ve changed my writing to cater to the large and seemingly growing audience of grownups who are pretty well up to speed on how to physically bump your uglies and are more interested in what’s going on between the ears than what’s going on between the legs. Am I still writing material that contains, though is not limited to erotic acts. I think I am. Is a seduction described in terms of what the characters are feeling, thinking and experiencing which assumes that the reader already knows how the various parts fit together sexual, even hot. I think so and enthusiastic reader response seems to agree. I have yet to receive a single feedback that complains or even mentions the lack of graphic description.
I’m no prude and I enjoy an occasional stroke story myself but I wouldn’t describe most of them as great literature. But to each his own; as sexual pleasure is created more in the mind than in the groin anyway. Given the huge variety of what we find erotic or arousing; it seems to me difficult to find a better method than letting the voters define for themselves what is eligible and worthy of recognition. I wouldn’t object to a new category but I think as a practical matter we will find ourselves back here next year squabbling over gray areas and nuances.
If the awards are meant to reflect the taste and response of the writers and readers, then let their votes represent them without trying to pre-screen or define the material for them.
As a reader I believe that the voters should decide a stories worth; assuming, of course, that the author does not disagree with the stories inclusion or categorization.
I would like to see a new category for no sex or low/no erotic content stories.
Bill H
There are stories that do not contain graphic descriptions of sexual acts, but which are erotic. I suggest including those types in the Clitorides as they stand now.
There are other stories that contain no graphic descriptions of sex and are not erotic. I suggest a new category: Non-Erotic Stories.
Yep. Create YAC (Yet Another Category) for actual no/little sex. There’s plenty of PG-13 on SOL (for one place) as well as on GMW’s site, etc.
Flash, short, novella, etc. would fit in just fine. There’s several drama pieces which would fit into these categories.
Consider changing the Name of the existing categories to add the word erotic where it is missing.
For example “Best Erotic Long Story of the Year”. Somehow, the missing erotic in some category title may lead to confusion.
Once the site is completely operational and functional, register some appropriate domain name like readers-awards.org and let’s expand.
Perhaps the guidance for nominations and voting should include words like stories in which sex or sexuality is a theme. Then if stories that skirt the edges of that guidance get nominated, voters can make up their own minds whether it qualifies or not.
I prefer to think of the awards as being for adult literature as opposed to erotic literature. By the way, I can write you an erotic passage that will leave your pants soaking wet, whichever sex you are, without resorting to sex.
OF
A seperate catagory should be the path. There are to many excellent stories on the site that contain no sex (such as those by Tony Stevens) to ignore them.
Well, in my opinion, eliminating all the ‘No Sex” stories seems like a cop-out to me. I thought the idea of the Clitorides was to encourage writers to improve by rewarding the best story in various genres. Perhaps a new ‘No Sex” award or two would be more appropriate?
I do have one other comment that ties into this subject, Lazeez. I feel you brought on the plethora of “No Sex” stories when you set up your new classification system. If there is little or no blatant sex in his tale, a writer now has two choices for classification, between “Some sex” and “No sex.” I remember that I asked then if a classification of “Little sex” or even “Titillation” could be included, but I don’t recall your exact response.
.B
We could count the number of words in the story, then the number of words that have some sexual connotation and come up with a sexual percentage – call it the X score. Then we determine the number of people likely to cheat on the voting and prorate it accordingly.
Or we could just count the votes.
OF
I, for one, am not in favour of including stories without erotic content into the general runnings. The problem is, however, how to define ‘erotic’ and ‘non-erotic’ writing. After all, our most important sexual organ (hopefully) is located between our ears.
Thus, a story can be erotic without descriptions of overt sexual acts. We’ll have to leave the decision to the voters, perhaps with a short reminder that the awards are intended for erotic writing.
I think, after reading what I wrote late last night, a further comment may be warranted. Lazeez and SoL are great, and SoL is his baby, to do with as he pleases.
However, I feel that the Clitorides are a facet of ASSTR. THe fact that Lazeez has jumped in and offered to help out is a very ‘neighbourly’ action, but I have to say that it could also be read wrong. It might almost seem as if he was trying to ‘control’ the awards. Personally, I doubt it, I’ve had dealings with Lazeez by e-mail and my read on him just doesn’t suit that scenario. Where I am going with this, is the idea, that it might be an idea to go slow with changes and if anything, broaden the scope of the awards, rather than lessen them.
Hey, I’m not against writing stories that verge on porn, heck I started out writing stories that were blatantly pornographic. I even made money by writing and selling porn to purely pornographic sites, under a different alias of course. However, when I ‘grew’ as a writer I became bored with the minimal plots and characters. I think that happens to all writers who are trying to improve, but writers are also creatures of habit. We keep posting where we are comfortable, so SoL and ASSTR now get more stories with less and less blatant sex, but with better plots, better characters and better editing.
I think writers who are improving should be encouraged. Now might not be the time, but eventually, I think it will have to happen, or the writers will find somewhere else to post.
.B
In my opinion, which I seem to share with others posting here, any story that is nominated and meets the criteria of being freely available should be included.
I am also with those that think there should be a separate category for non-sexual stories, but this should not preclude them from being entered in topic categories. For example, a story with codes “FF Sci-Fi Rom” can be nominated in the romance, science fiction and same-sex categories. A “Sci-Fi Rom No-sex” story should be eligible for the sci-fi, romance and no-sex categories.
If you are uncomfortable with the no-sex award being a “clitoride” award then make it a separate award awarded at the same time, perhaps the “World Literature Corporation award” or something.
In general, I agree with let the voters decide if there is even a question whether the story is erotica (inclusion of sexuality aside).
However, a clearly non-erotic story should not clear nominations (for example, a retelling of an epic baseball game to go to extremes). The Clitorides are at heart an erotica award, therefore the stories should lean towards an erotic nature.
As a reader, I like a good mix. I tend to go with the more story with sex the sex with some story. So I would say yes. As said by other they should be judge on their own as romance and s&m should not be judged together.
I can’t imagine why you’d even consider trying to exclude stories for lack of sex. The headache of trying to determine if a story meets someone’s definition of erotica – and dealing with the people who have a different definition of such a subjective term – would suggest that it’s folly. Let the voters decide.
As a returning member and occassional author (not SOL), I am interested in this discussion.
There is no clear-cut, absolute right or wrong answer (as evidenced by the comments); however, my personal preference would be to keep the GC’s oriented toward sexual/erotic fiction.
Any creative field finds there are many grey areas in categorizing (look at the music, movie, and book industries). They seem to recognize the value of taking the trouble to perform the exercise, in order to ensure that the award is properly credited and to encourage diversity.
I believe that their solution is to create a board or selection committee. This certainly doesn’t eliminate criticism or conflicting opinion, but I think it is as close to a fair system as we are likely to find.
I have been reading this and have thought long and hard about whether to comment on this or not but I think some one needs to. Having a set of rules about what is eligible needs to nailed down, the award is for erotic works from what I understand so set up the categories to reflect that. Someone mentioned the Hugo Awards they have rules about what can and cannot be nominated, see their rules here:
http://www.wsfs.org/bm/const-2006.html#hugo
the rules do not have to be iron clad but if you set up a base line most of us can figure out what does and does not belong such as nominating Daniel steel for a hugo and Ragnar Benson for a romance award. As far as just letting whatever be nominated and voted on I think that is a mistake it will give the voters nothing to go by,
insert sarcasm here
“Best Long novel – should I go with the romance, or the sci-fi or that detective novel” all three are novels but do not belong in the same category. Sorry if this sounds like it is rambling will get off of here and go crash for the night
I agree with theoldsarge , create a separate category for the no sex stories. The authors obviously made a distinction when they posted the codes for it. So should we. I find that i skip no-sex stories many times depending on my mood that day, but i don’t exclude them from reading consideration completely.
The name makes it clear that they’re erotica awards – you’re not going to get a huge crowd of English profs and literary reviewers flocking to a page for the “Clitoride Awards”. Maybe stick some extra commentary in about how they’re awards for erotic writing, but leave the definitions up to the voters.
I’d say if someone liked it enough to bother to nominate it, and other people like it enough to vote on it, that should pretty much answer your question.
Greetings
I’m torn about this issue.
On one hand ALL good writing should be recognized and appreciated but by the same token the highest quality erotic writing needs to be celebrated and particularly encouraged.
Given the paucity of awards and recognition for good erotic writing I’m leaning toward “NO” for a Gold Clit no-sex category award…
Recognize quality writing that happens with or without sex but call it something else and use the GC to encourage writers in that genre to improve.
As the community of readers and writers expands,matures, and writers stretch their imaginations and hone their skills I expect this will be an ongoing issue but finding a way to reward excellence hardly the worst problem to have when such exists
Not so BTW, thanx for taking on this task.
Enjoy the journey
WarLord
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